I think this should be listed as a Volcano variant, rather than as a separate game. - Cerulean 22:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What do you propose as an organization, both in terms of page creation and cross-linking. I think it's good to make a new page for a variation, so as not to clutter the source/original page with rule tweaks. That said, this IS a minor tweak--just setup the board differently/randomly so that the usual openings don't work as well. After setup, there's no further rules changes... so maybe it SHOULD go as a footnote or into a Variations section of the main Volcano page, trimmed down a bit to something like "make each nest randomly--place smalls randomly, then mediums, then larges." That's enough for anyone who can grok Volcano to need to "get" Scrambled Volcano.
- But, all that said, I made Ikkozendo its own page... but it not only changes components (single-stash), it also changes actual play actions on turns and Master response--it only realy keep the basic premise and terminology.
- Hmmmm.... Maybe we need a sort of "Style Guide" which could include information about when a game is a Variation or a Derivation, and how to properly list and document it.
- So, for instance, I'd say any game in which one would only edit a single section of another game's rules to make the new game is a Variation (see Moon Shot or Wormholes for how I use Footnotes to refer to individual rule Variations). Conversely, if one would have to edit two or more sections of the original game's rules to make the new game, it's a Derivation (i.e. "inspired by" and "derivative of"--see Wormholes again; it's a Derivation of Zamboni Wars and Martian Coasters, but as its rules deviate from several sections of either game, its a Derivation... heh, a Derivation with its own Variations). Note that the term "Derivation" reflects the verbiage of the Creative Commons License options (specifically, "Yes/No Derivative Works"). Note ALSO that this does NOT imply that one edits the original game page, except to ADD Variation rules to an end section or via Footnotes.
- So then, a Variation would be listed on the original games page in an end section called Variations; while a Derivation would get its own page and give attribution to the original game and its creator.
- By that thinking, Scrambled Volcano is a Variation (specifically to Setup) of Volcano.
- But it gets a bit more complex with game rules hosted off-site--we can't edit their content . In such a case, it can be a bit of pain to the end user: she reads the page here for Volcano, likes it, then clicks out to LL.com for the full rules, THEN has to come back to read the Variations on our Volcano page (as they may or may not make sense until the full rules are known). In THAT ONE corner case, I'd say a Variation CAN have its own page here... in particular when it's a Setup Variation, because that allows for linear reading": she reads the Variation's setup on its own page, which then links her to the rest of the rule offsite (as Jim has done here). That works; that flows. Had the Variation been to, say, Scoring or the Win Condition, or to how a cap move makes a Volcano erupt... well, then we're back to Variations section on the "game-placeholder" page here, becasue one would become confused reading a Variation for a rule so "deep" into the rules without first reading all the normal rules. Making sense?
- Sooooo... Jim is doing fine, here, by my thinking, but ONLY because he made a new page for a Variation to Setup of a game that doesn't host its rules here. (**Whew**) If Volcano's rules were hosted here in full, I'd say take down this page and make a Variations section in the main game page, for the tweak. If Jim's tweaks were across the game's rule's sections, I'd say write it all out--soup to nuts--on its own page, as a Derivation (Ikkozendo).
- In closing, regardless of the hosting location of full rules, or whether a game is a Variation or a Derivation, it would be listed in the navigation, if the designer desires. (That said, I haven't listed Moon Shot's five-plus Variations, nor Wormhole's three Variations as individual games because... well, it just seems spammy. But I COULD have come up with game name Variation for, say, Moon Shot--"Advanced Moon Shot" using all the Variation rules that require a piece to be completely in the tube to be counted--and listed it if I wanted to: that game is as worthy of attention as Scrambled Eggs, on the game lists. Hell, and you may have noted by now that I list Stacktors! in a couple of places on the What Can I Play? page, because it's scalable--one can play with only a few TH sets, with all store-available colors of IH stashes, or with that plus Gray IH stashes... and different rules kick in with each addition (in particular, gray stash). THAT seemed to warrant multiple listing of Variations on What Can I Play? because the WCIP? page is designed to let a player "audit" her collection to then easily figure out what she can play. It made sense to me to distinguish between a "Limited" game with a few sets and a "Complete" game with all the fixin's.
- Long story shot, I think Jim chose the best way to present a Variation of a game's setup, when the game's full rules aren't on this site. Short story long (above), we could come up with a few guidelines in the wiki's Help and the game listing pages instructions to keep a consistent practice going forward (and even ret-conning back on old pages, to "clean up" those that don't follow a standard we devise). Thoughts? (This might should go to the Icehouse list... but I am moderated on that, so it would be up to one of you to carry the inquiry to the masses.) --David Artman 17:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)